Zappa.com The Official Frank Zappa Messageboards    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups  Chat     Profile   You have no new messages   Log out [ baddy ]  Preview Posted: 01 Jul 2008 15:03     Post subject: There's something else going on. It's easy to miss when just looking at a post here and there as they occur, but when all posts are gathered together, a pattern emerges. Yes it's important to back up my antiwar/anti-evil position with facts and sources, but it's equally important to point out what is consistently weak about the pro-lesser-evil side of the argument. When there are facts and logic being presented to show a person's position is unsound, some people will re-assess their thinking and adjust their position. But this does not always happen. Sometimes a person is "dug in" and does not want to change his position for various reasons, or sometimes a person is unreceptive to new information that conflicts with what they already believe. When a person cannot back up his position with facts and logic, and they still wish to maintain their position, then OTHER METHODS must be used to "defend" their position. It's important to notice that there will ALWAYS be a failure to answer to the facts and logic presented, (and sometimes this dodging can go to great lengths SUCH AS IN THIS TRULY CLASSIC AND ASTOUNDING EXAMPLE ). Generally, the failure to answer is accompanied by distraction by changing the subject, "flack" by burying the subject with other chatter, and by personal attacks against the person who's presenting the "uncomfortable facts," (generally by ridicule, since no true basis for personal character attacks exists). It's also worthwhile to notice that the strategy of personal attack is not limited to the threads the challenges are in, rather the personal attacks continue out into all other threads where opportunity for attack arises. For example THIS CHRISTMAS PRESENT TO THE FORUM where my crime was to start a new thread to post an animation laced with Zappa jokes, (that took me four days to make). Even my Christmas present thread was not spared Jimmie's personal attacks, (I wonder what's in his heart that made him go in there and write that crap in a christmas present). It should be noted that my only real "crime" was presenting uncomfortable challenges, challenges about the holes in the lesser-evil argument that the bombers are flying through, challenges to which lesser evil has no answer...hence, by disagreeing with him, I've brought the wrath of Jimmie-d upon myself. If some notice in discussions such as the post that began this thread, I am attacking the content of lesser evils position, rather than taking the distractive bait and following the descending spiral of personal attacks and ridicule route. The behavior in the Christmas present thread has the intent to put the kaibash on other (positive) responses to the Christmas present that may come, similar to ridicule it has the intent of pushing me from the group, (why else go in there and write something nasty in an innocent Christmas present thread). Before I leave the topic of ridicule, I wish to give a few more quick examples of the ridicule that's befallen me since I first disagreed with Jimmie in 2003, (to show the above example wasn't an isolated incident, rather it's the constant, unwavering rule). I also wish to point out that besides ridicule showing lesser-evil has no factual defense, it also shows something about the ridiculer, it shows a problem with respecting people. Our Dear Mr. D has been busy disrespecting and ridiculing me by calling me childish names such as Trendy, Badmonger, tightass, on acid, Bushlover, or saying I have a tin foil hat, or bumper sticker on my UFO. It goes on and on and on; count yourself lucky if you've never had to disagree with Jimmie-d and brought his constant harrassment upon yourself. jimmie d killed the forum wrote: Hey, baddy, do ya have one on the bumper of your UFO, too? LOL LOL ...and I wasn't even posting in the following thread, I'm just getting badmouthed, (even the personal ridicule extending to my private parts)... jimmie d killed the forum wrote: baddy, might pop a boner over this. jimmie d killed the forum wrote: punknaynowned wrote: Jones is giving so much press on Ron Paul . . . ergo.....the baddy-boner (And the constant harrassment goes on and on, aren't you glad Jimmie-d ain't mad at YOU)... jimmie d killed the forum wrote: This is JIMMIE D . . . Baddy has just worked himself into an imaginary frenzy during the vote-out of his imaginary candidate . . . He begins to feel depressed now. He knows the end is near. He has realized at last that imaginary Gravel votes and imaginary ideals exist only in the imagination of The Imaginer . . . and . . . ultimately, who gives a fuck anyway? . . . So . . . So . . . Excuse me . . . Ha ha ha! Mm-mh . . . So . . . Ha ha ha . . . Ha ha ha! Who gives a fuck anyway? So he goes back to his ugly little room and quietly dreams his last imaginary forum post . . . Ridicule, as a response to political challenges, comprises half of the defense Jimmie relys on when challenged on the holes in his position, the other half of his defense consists of distraction and avoidance the issues. If one has his position challenged, and cannot answer the challenge with facts, it's best to get attention off the embarassing challenge, off the inability to answer, and onto ANYTHING else. Common distractions might be: 1. Attack my information for it's grammar, (but still no answer to it's content). jimmie d killed the forum wrote: Proper grammar would be: .....so the bombs would finally stop falling on my family and me. I was previously unaware that you were a member of the Me-First Generation, baddy. You need help, dude. I won't revisit this thread. Ypu won't revisit the thread because of it's bad grammar, or is that just a cop out to avoid looking at the RESULTS OF THE FORUM POLL (click here). Also notice the above distraction also incorporates personal ridicule as it implements the action of avoiding the issue. 2. Say my information was posted in the wrong thread, (but no answer to it's content). 3. Attack my information for being in a "redundant" thread, (but no answer to it's content). 4. Attack my information for spelling, (but no answer to it's content). 5. Tell us you don't have to answer any questions, yet demand I answer yours, (and of course this is a direct cop out from answering the question). jimmie d killed the forum wrote: As with Trendmonger's screeds, I kinda lose interest before I get half way through your posts. Ya know, no one on the forum is obligated to answer any questions. I’ve chosen to exercise my prerogative of divulging what I select. Make of it what you will. ...and the conflicting post... jimmie d killed the forum wrote: Baddy, you quoted me, but failed to give a direct answer to the question posed in the quote. 6. Tell me you "don't read that thread anymore," (as a reason for not answering content), but accuse me of not reading posts that you make. 7. Attack my information for length, (but no answer to it's content). Reality: Most of the truth in the world is not on TV (or in cartoons). Put quite simply, if one doesn't read a lot, then one doesn't know a lot. 8. Spam the forum with distraction to get attention off the unwanted information, and off the inability to answer to it. Any post or cartoon to split the attention will work. This used to happen on a much larger scale (until I started calling attention to it, making it harder to get away with), but it still happens fairly reliably on a smaller scale, (lol, I can tell when I'm writing particularly damning facts, especially about the Dems, that the spam is about to arrive, and it does....watch for it, you'll see it almost every time once you know to look for it). For one example: I started the "How to Fool a Democrat" thread because a large portion of the anti-war sentiment is in the Democrat rank and file voters. Many anti-war people have recently found out about the true nature of the big money Dems (ie: took control of Congress on the promise to end the war, then instead nearly doubled the war money sent to Bush). Although the "How to Fool A Republican" thread can provide Jimmie with a handy reusable distraction, to the rest of us who all have known for years not to vote for the big money Republicans, the thread is just unnecessary distraction, or spam. A more recent example of lower level distraction may be SEEN HERE. If you look near the bottom of the page you'll see the most recent example of what I am describing. Although the cartoons have been debunked and Jimmie has been directly challenged in the post above, the challenge is avoided, and the ignorant spam cartoons continue unabated. 9. Denying one's own words, (with no answer to content). This happened recently where it was insinuated that I "manufactured" an example of a quote from Jimmie. It's a very weak defense because as soon as anyone realizes I didn't "manufacture" his words, that he has been reduced to denying his own words, and that's Jimmie's best response, then his total defense has utterly collapsed... So, things are a lot different around here than they were in 2004. I personally hope that the political wing of the forum continues picking up and retaining good people, making us a more truly antiwar and progressive site such as sites like Counterpunch.org, Antiwar.com, and Democracynow.org. _________________ If we are in danger of losing our freedom of speech, isn’t it because we have chosen to remain silent? -Monica Benderman Zappa.com Forum Index -> General Board Post a new topic Subject Message body Emoticons View more Emoticons  Font colour: Default Dark Red Red Orange Brown Yellow Green Olive Cyan Blue Dark Blue Indigo Violet White Black  Font size: Font size Tiny Small Normal Large Huge Close Tags There's something else going on. It's easy to miss when just looking at a post here and there as they occur, but when all posts are gathered together, a pattern emerges. Yes it's important to back up my antiwar/anti-evil position with facts and sources, but [b]it's equally important to point out what is consistently weak[/b] about the pro-lesser-evil side of the argument. When there are facts and logic being presented to show a person's position is unsound, some people will re-assess their thinking and adjust their position. But this does not always happen. Sometimes a person is "dug in" and does not want to change his position for various reasons, or sometimes a person is unreceptive to new information that conflicts with what they already believe. When a person cannot back up his position with facts and logic, and they still wish to maintain their position, then OTHER METHODS must be used to "defend" their position. It's important to notice that there will ALWAYS be a failure to answer to the facts and logic presented, (and sometimes this dodging can go to [i]great lengths[/i] [url=http://www.zappa.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12548&highlight=randi]SUCH AS IN THIS TRULY CLASSIC AND ASTOUNDING EXAMPLE [/url]). Generally, the failure to answer is accompanied by distraction by changing the subject, "flack" by burying the subject with other chatter, [b]and[/b] by personal attacks against the person who's presenting the "uncomfortable facts," (generally by ridicule, since no true basis for personal character attacks exists). It's also worthwhile to notice that the strategy of personal attack is not limited to the threads the challenges are in, rather the personal attacks continue out into all other threads where opportunity for attack arises. For example [url=http://www.zappa.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=322864&highlight=saucers#322864]THIS CHRISTMAS PRESENT TO THE FORUM[/url] where my crime was to start a new thread to post an animation laced with Zappa jokes, (that took me four days to make). Even my Christmas present thread was not spared Jimmie's personal attacks, (I wonder what's in his heart that made him go in there and write that crap in a christmas present). It should be noted that my only real "crime" was presenting uncomfortable challenges, challenges about the holes in the lesser-evil argument that the bombers are flying through, challenges to which lesser evil has no answer...hence, by disagreeing with him, I've brought the wrath of Jimmie-d upon myself. If some notice in discussions such as the post that began this thread, I am attacking the [b]content[/b] of lesser evils position, rather than taking the distractive bait and following the descending spiral of personal attacks and ridicule route. The behavior in the Christmas present thread has the intent to put the kaibash on other (positive) responses to the Christmas present that may come, similar to ridicule it has the intent of pushing me from the group, (why else go in there and write something nasty in an innocent Christmas present thread). Before I leave the topic of ridicule, I wish to give a few more quick examples of the ridicule that's befallen me since I first disagreed with Jimmie in 2003, (to show the above example wasn't an isolated incident, rather it's the constant, unwavering rule). I also wish to point out that besides ridicule showing lesser-evil has no factual defense, it also shows something about the ridiculer, it shows [b]a problem with respecting people[/b]. Our Dear Mr. D has been busy disrespecting and ridiculing me by calling me childish names such as Trendy, Badmonger, tightass, on acid, Bushlover, or saying I have a tin foil hat, or bumper sticker on my UFO. It goes on and on and on; count yourself lucky if you've never had to disagree with Jimmie-d and brought his constant harrassment upon yourself. [quote="jimmie d killed the forum"] [b]Hey, baddy, do ya have one on the bumper of your UFO, too?[/b] [size=24]LOL[/size] :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: [size=24]LOL[/size] [/quote] ...and I wasn't even posting in the following thread, I'm just getting badmouthed, (even the personal ridicule extending to my private parts)... [quote="jimmie d killed the forum"]baddy, might pop a boner over this. :mrgreen: :twisted: :wink:[/quote] [quote="jimmie d killed the forum"][quote="punknaynowned"]Jones is giving so much press on Ron Paul . . .[/quote] ergo.....the baddy-boner 8)[/quote] (And the constant harrassment goes on and on, aren't you glad Jimmie-d ain't mad at YOU)... [quote="jimmie d killed the forum"][b]This is JIMMIE D . . . Baddy has just worked himself into an imaginary frenzy during the vote-out of his imaginary candidate . . . He begins to feel depressed now. He knows the end is near. He has realized at last that imaginary Gravel votes and imaginary ideals exist only in the imagination of The Imaginer . . . and . . . ultimately, who gives a fuck anyway? . . . So . . . So . . . Excuse me . . . Ha ha ha! Mm-mh . . . So . . . Ha ha ha . . . Ha ha ha! Who gives a fuck anyway? So he goes back to his ugly little room and quietly dreams his last imaginary forum post . . .[/b][/quote] Ridicule, as a response to political challenges, comprises half of the defense Jimmie relys on when challenged on the holes in his position, the other half of his defense consists of distraction and avoidance the issues. If one has his position challenged, and cannot answer the challenge with facts, it's best to get attention off the embarassing challenge, off the inability to answer, and onto ANYTHING else. Common distractions might be: 1. Attack my information for it's grammar, (but still no answer to it's content). [quote="jimmie d killed the forum"]Proper grammar would be: [b].....so the bombs would finally stop falling on my family and me.[/b] I was previously unaware that you were a member of the Me-First Generation, baddy. [b]You need help, dude. I won't revisit this thread.[/b][/quote] Ypu won't revisit the thread because of it's bad grammar, or is that just a cop out to avoid looking at the [url=http://www.zappa.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13131&highlight=iraqi+citizen]RESULTS OF THE FORUM POLL (click here)[/url]. Also notice the above distraction [i]also[/i] incorporates personal ridicule as it implements the action of avoiding the issue. 2. Say my information was posted in the wrong thread, (but no answer to it's content). 3. Attack my information for being in a "redundant" thread, (but no answer to it's content). 4. Attack my information for spelling, (but no answer to it's content). 5. Tell us you don't have to answer any questions, yet demand I answer yours, (and of course this is a direct cop out from answering the question). [quote="jimmie d killed the forum"] As with Trendmonger's screeds, I kinda lose interest before I get half way through your posts. Ya know, [b]no one on the forum is obligated to answer any questions[/b]. I’ve chosen to exercise my prerogative of divulging what I select. Make of it what you will. [/quote] ...and the conflicting post... [quote="jimmie d killed the forum"]Baddy, you quoted me, [b]but failed to give a direct answer to the question[/b] posed in the quote.[/quote] 6. Tell me you "don't read that thread anymore," (as a reason for not answering content), but accuse me of not reading posts that you make. 7. Attack my information for length, (but no answer to it's content). Reality: Most of the truth in the world is not on TV (or in cartoons). Put quite simply, if one doesn't read a lot, then one doesn't know a lot. 8. Spam the forum with distraction to get attention off the unwanted information, and off the inability to answer to it. Any post or cartoon to split the attention will work. This used to happen on a much larger scale (until I started calling attention to it, making it harder to get away with), but it still happens fairly reliably on a smaller scale, (lol, I can tell when I'm writing particularly damning facts, especially about the Dems, that the spam is about to arrive, and it does....watch for it, you'll see it almost every time once you know to look for it). For one example: I started the "How to Fool a Democrat" thread because a large portion of the anti-war sentiment is in the Democrat rank and file voters. Many anti-war people have recently found out about the true nature of the big money Dems (ie: took control of Congress on the promise to end the war, then instead nearly [i]doubled[/i] the war money sent to Bush). Although the "How to Fool A Republican" thread can provide Jimmie with a handy reusable distraction, to the rest of us who all have known for years not to vote for the big money Republicans, the thread is just unnecessary distraction, or spam. A more recent example of lower level distraction may be [url=http://www.zappa.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13862&start=50]SEEN HERE[/url]. If you look near the bottom of the page you'll see the most recent example of what I am describing. Although the cartoons have been debunked and Jimmie has been directly challenged in the post above, the challenge is avoided, and the ignorant spam cartoons continue unabated. 9. Denying one's own words, (with no answer to content). This happened recently where it was insinuated that I "manufactured" an example of a quote from Jimmie. It's a very weak defense because as soon as anyone realizes I didn't "manufacture" his words, that he has been reduced to denying his own words, and that's Jimmie's [i]best[/i] response, then his total defense has utterly collapsed... [img]http://znakomi.com/zappaforum/2007/JDpost/JDmanufacturedimage.jpg[/img] So, things are a lot different around here than they were in 2004. I personally hope that the [i]political wing[/i] of the forum continues picking up and retaining good people, making us a more truly antiwar and progressive site such as sites like Counterpunch.org, Antiwar.com, and Democracynow.org. Options HTML is OFF BBCode is ON Smilies are ON Disable BBCode in this post Disable Smilies in this post Attach signature (signatures can be changed in profile) Notify me when a reply is posted Add a Poll If you do not want to add a poll to your topic, leave the fields blank. 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